Tango
Just wanted to write this down while I remember it, so that I can come back in 2 years' time and laugh at my own ridiculous ideas. :D



Warning: spoilers!



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Tango

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20.07.2005 в 13:53

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Still, I think that's too much of Snape everywhere. Figaro ci, Figaro la, evaesdropped the prophesy, then ran to Voldemort, them ran to Dumbledore, then run to get the crux-stuff...))) Why didn't he tell D. then?

Besides, it's very strange that Snape could know about smth that confidential that nobody knew about, and even D. had to spend many years to figure out. Some Regulus wouldn't know either, I admit.



In my opinion: Темна вода в облацех... :tongue:
21.07.2005 в 04:18

Tango
Actually... I have another theory, too. I'll make a separate post.



EDITED to say that no, I won't make a new post, because I realised that there's a problem with my idea. I thought that if "RAB" really are initials, then it could be Amelia Bones (a lot of people do use their middle name instead of their first name) but ... WikiPedia informs me that her middle name is Susan. (I don't have book 5 handy to check, but I suspect that they are right). So - probably not her, but it's a pity; if Voldemort went to the trouble of killing her personally, it would fit.



Ah well.



Tango
21.07.2005 в 08:58

This is Jessica -- I don't understand how to navigate this site in Russian to get myself a user account, or I would. :-)



What about Regulus Black? (Sirius's younger brother -- in book 5 when Harry found the family tapestry, Sirius said he'd been a Death Eater but had gotten cold feet and he was killed, but he probably wasn't in deep enough to merit a personal execution from Voldemort.) He doesn't have a middle name as far as we know, but he and Snape would probably have been close enough in age at Hogwarts to have know each other... maybe they both got cold feet at once. Who knows? I don't think Hermione knew about him, which would explain his name not occuring to her.



Maybe Snape gave Regulus the impression that he too wanted to defect, so they set about finding the Horcrux. When they got there, Snape was forced to kill Regulus because Regulus wanted to defect and Snape had to keep his cover as a DE, and then Snape took the Horcrux to Dumbledore in Regulus's name.



I liked your review of HBP too -- great comments! I LOVED the book. (But Sirius is one of my favourite characters... I miss him. I have a really half-baked idea that in the final confrontation Harry and Voldemort will progress 'beyond the veil' and Sirius will have to guide Harry in how to defeat Voldemort, so Sirius can at least sort-of return.)



Jessica
21.07.2005 в 10:17

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Jessica



"Maybe Snape gave Regulus the impression that he too wanted to defect, so they set about finding the Horcrux. When they got there, Snape was forced to kill Regulus because Regulus wanted to defect and Snape had to keep his cover as a DE, and then Snape took the Horcrux to Dumbledore in Regulus's name."



- Or they went together just like Harry and Dumbledore, and one of them had to drink, and that guy was Regulus, and then he died of it, and everybody thought, aha, DE killed him. And Snape went to D. ... and what? He couldn't have bought him this Horcrux, because then why on Earth should D. return there to look for it again?!



"I have a really half-baked idea that in the final confrontation Harry and Voldemort will progress 'beyond the veil' and Sirius will have to guide Harry in how to defeat Voldemort, so Sirius can at least sort-of return.)"



- Oh yes, I love this idea! I'll stick to it, it's so promising..
21.07.2005 в 10:49

Tango
Jessica

Yay, you're back! I love your theories -- though I do think that the major argument against it being an actual name is that Hermione was looking up people in various papers and records in the library: she turned up two promising names but couldn't find any connection with the Dark Arts, so I think she would have turned up Regulus' name too, if it was plausible that it's him. (Also an argument against Amelia Bones, admittedly.) But we'll have to wait and see, I guess.



It occurred to me that it could be Snape + someone else too, and like you, I also thought that IF Snape had given Dumbledore a Horcrux, that would be the ultimate "ironclad proof" of his loyalties (I'm convinced he had to have given D. something tangible, not just words or a vow). So in fact, it's plausible that the note was to put Voldemort off the real track and as you said, Snape wrote it after Regulus was killed or drank the poison. (Actually I'm inclined to go with the latter of those two options, if that's the case -- I doubt Snape would have killed him).



Dolly

Or they went together just like Harry and Dumbledore, and one of them had to drink, and that guy was Regulus, and then he died of it, and everybody thought, aha, DE killed him.

That's actually a rather brilliant idea for getting rid of Regulus, if Jessica is right and it was him and Snape working together. The picture is starting to look quite plausible, even. :D



And Snape went to D. ... and what? He couldn't have bought him this Horcrux, because then why on Earth should D. return there to look for it again?!

Snape may not have told Dumbledore where the Horcrux came from. If nothing else, it would have been dangerous to do because the fewer people know that he was in the cave with Regulus (or whoever), the better his cover with Voldemort. Why compromise it for the sake of a travelogue, anyway? Now that the Horcrux is gone, there is no need for Dumbledore to know where it came from. So Dumbledore could have been working on outdated information when he went to chase the Horcrux (he did not know which one it was, did he?), and it seems that he told nobody but Harry where he was going that night -- not even Snape. If he had, perhaps Snape would have stopped him.



Tango
21.07.2005 в 11:26

Dolly (nice to meet you!)



Nice theories -- they flesh out my hastily-written post a lot. :-)





And Snape went to D. ... and what? He couldn't have bought him this Horcrux, because then why on Earth should D. return there to look for it again?!




One interesting little titbit I found on a HP forum I occasionally visit is that while they're cleaning out 12 Grimmauld Place in book 5, there is mention of a big, heavy gold locket they nobody could open. I don't remember what they decided to do with it... but it's entirely possible that that's the Horcrux. And since Harry now owns it, according to Sirius's will... all he has to do is a) figure this out, and b) destroy it. Then do the same thing for three more. Then kill Voldemort. :D



Tanya



I never go away. I am just an erratic commenter. :D



Btw, this is completely off-topic, but if you would like to read a work of absolute genius, I suggest you check out http://www.livejournal.com/community/shoebox_project/ -- the Shoebox Project. It's the zaniest imagining of the Marauders I have ever had the pleasure to read. :D
21.07.2005 в 11:38

Tanya, as an further thought (I got a little submit-button happy and I don't know how to edit :D) -- the original theory I had was that the plan to steal the Horcrux was instigated by Snape, and he enlisted Regulus to use as his scapegoat, but also from a certain compassion because they had both realised they were in too deep. I could see a younger Snape leading Regulus on that they were both going to Dumbledore with the Horcrux, most probably knowing full well that only he himself would make it. Regulus drinks the first batch of potion, he dies or is severely weakened (if the latter, I think Snape would have killed him), Snape reaches in and gets the Horcrux... and then this is the part I got stuck on. How the hell would he have transported another batch of potion there? *shrug* Anyway, say he does, and he then gets out alive.



That way, he could take the Horcrux to Dumbledore as his ironclad proof of defection, but he could also either forge the note, or have actually let Regulus write it in advance (I mean, if you were on a little island with an army of dead bodies floating around, you wouldn't be feeling particularly eloquent! :D) and leave it there, and then put the potion on top. Then, after delivering the real Horcrux to Dumbledore (for the reasons you outlined) he could go back to Voldemort and say, it's still there, it's safe. Regulus wanted me to drink the potion, we had a fight, he fell into the creepy dead water. So I hopped right back on the boat.



Jessica
21.07.2005 в 11:50

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Jessica, nice to meet you too!))

Infact there is already a nicely put theory somewhere in LJ which reminds us of Mundungus' brief appearance with stolen stuff. It can be that it's a link between that locket in the 5th book and Horcruxes. Maybe Mund. even stole it)))).



Tango, Jessica:

Still, I don't like the whole issue of Dumbledore going to look for smth already cleaned up by his best spy. Such lack of communication through all these years? I mean Snape could've easily put aside a memory or two for Dumbledore to read. Ok, Snape is vvvery reserved etc., but not so with Dumbledore? (I persume). And Dumbledore would have just loved to pensieve trough a travelogue like this in his spare-time, wouldn't he? :tongue:
21.07.2005 в 17:18

Tango
Jessica

I don't think you can edit a post unless you've logged in -- and no worries, post as many times as you like. :D I never thought of the heavy locket in Book 5 as a Horcrux, but I do remember it! Very possible. Dolly's point about Mundungus also seems to support that.



Actually I think everything is going to be suspected of being a Horcrux now! I heard an idea from someone that Dumbledore was a Horcrux (or at least his hand, because V's soul went from the ring into it) and that's why Snape had to kill him. Personally, I have my doubts -- but you never know. :D If we suspect everything, sooner or later we'll be proven right!



I mean, if you were on a little island with an army of dead bodies floating around, you wouldn't be feeling particularly eloquent!

LOL!!! True. :laugh:



I could see a younger Snape leading Regulus on that they were both going to Dumbledore with the Horcrux, most probably knowing full well that only he himself would make it

Really? That would make him quite a bastard, though. It's one thing to be responsible for someone's death through passing information; it's quite another to physically lead someone to their death, force-feed them poison, and then blame the whole thing on them. :D Dunno, I'm more inclined to think that if it happened this way, Regulus was acting of his own free will.



it's still there, it's safe. Regulus wanted me to drink the potion, we had a fight, he fell into the creepy dead water. So I hopped right back on the boat.

*snorts with barely-suppressed laughter* I can just see this. Someone should write a comedy fic like that. (Dark comedy, admittedly... :D)



I'll check out the fic you recommend, but probably not for a while -- I'm up to my ears in work, writing, etc at the moment!



Dolly

I don't like the whole issue of Dumbledore going to look for smth already cleaned up by his best spy

Neither did Dumbledore, I'm sure... :D Eh, who knows. I'm more inclined to believe in this small miscommunication (or lack of information) than in the idea that D. was mistaken about Snape's entire character. But I'm not married to this theory or anything; I just have a suspicon that Snape should be involved in this, for some reason.



Tango
22.07.2005 в 07:49

Dolly,



Infact there is already a nicely put theory somewhere in LJ which reminds us of Mundungus' brief appearance with stolen stuff. It can be that it's a link between that locket in the 5th book and Horcruxes. Maybe Mund. even stole it)))).



Interesting... I have yet to see the point of Mundungus's character; maybe there is a reason for him being there. :-)



Jessica
22.07.2005 в 07:51

Tanya,



Really? That would make him quite a bastard, though. It's one thing to be responsible for someone's death through passing information; it's quite another to physically lead someone to their death, force-feed them poison, and then blame the whole thing on them. Dunno, I'm more inclined to think that if it happened this way, Regulus was acting of his own free will.



Whatever side he's on, I still think Snape is a vindictive jerk. We've seen how much he dislikes Harry, who hasn't really done anything to deserve this hatred (at least he hadn't at the beginning -- but once you know someone isn't going to like you no matter how nice to them you are, there's really no point wasting your time). Regulus was Sirius's younger brother; I can see Snape going through a similar thought process that he could get some revenge on Sirius for the latter having been so cruel to him. (Although I think the truth of this is debatable -- in the Pensieve in book 5, it certainly looked like Snape was being unfairly victimised, but he did invent the Levicorpus spell that James used on him -- and I think he fights back with what could have been the Sectumsempra one. I think there was more fight in him than we saw in that scene.) I also think that there is no one more important to Snape than Snape, and he would much rather Regulus drank an unknown potion than himself.



I do think Regulus was acting of his own free will -- I just think Snape had his own agenda that determined the information Regulus had.



(it keeps telling me I'm over the allowable post limit -- more in the following)
22.07.2005 в 07:51

I'm sure Snape's going to be involved somehow... I didn't really understand how the HBP was actually relevant to the Horcrux storyline. It seemed like something totally separate. I'm sure it will be expanded on in the final book. I really, really hope we get a Dumbledore-type exposition scene that explains why Snape is Snape, whose side he's on... everything. I want to know more about him!



Speaking of weird theories, the best one I've seen so far is that Dumbledore and Snape were actually masquerading as each other, so Dumbledore was at Spinner's End and so Snape was not tied by the Unbreakable Vow. All I can say is that that would take VATS of Polyjuice Potion. :D



Jessica
22.07.2005 в 09:12

Tango
Yeah, I agree with you about Snape's character: he's definitely a vindictive, self-centered, infantile jerk. What I was saying though is that I don't really see him tricking Regulus into suicide -- but it seems we agree on this anyway. I think it's entirely likely that Snape did have his own agenda, so that he and Reggie were doing this for their own separate reasons. (This is starting to turn into a thesis. :D)



BTW, somewhat off-topic, I've really missed these character discussions with you! Now all we need is Cressid to assure us that everyone is more messed-up than we could possibly guess, and the unholy trinity will be complete. :D



I didn't really understand how the HBP was actually relevant to the Horcrux storyline. It seemed like something totally separate.

I had the same issue. I suppose it will be explained in the next book. This one really does leave an awful lot of loose ends.



All I can say is that that would take VATS of Polyjuice Potion

Bwahaha!! I think this one is up there with the "evil Dumbledore" theory. :D



Tango
22.07.2005 в 18:18

I think the thing with Snape is that he has to have an extremely good reason for doing something in order for him to do it. I don't think he would go to the trouble of bringing Regulus along with him to get the Horcrux unless that would actually help him out in some way. He would not bother if it was just a matter of getting revenge on Sirius's brother. If that's a bonus, great! :D But I think he would have known he needed someone to serve as his Human Shield And/Or Chief Guinea Pig... it just so happened to be Regulus.



I miss talking to you as well! I miss always agreeing with you. :D I miss Cressid and her deep theories... I remember how obscenely difficult it was to schedule all our chats without forcing anyone to be online at crazy hours.



I'm sure the Horcrux/HBP thing will be explained -- if it's important enough to be the title of the book, it will come back. I think this book is almost the prologue to the finale, because they'll be more closely related than the others have been. We pretty much know what Harry's intentions are for the next book, which we haven't before. We knew he'd go back to Hogwarts, sure, but that doesn't count. ;-) And if there have to be loose ends, I want them in this book rather than the next one.



I have also read that Ron is the reincarnation of Dumbledore -- quite a live Dumbledore could reincarnate himself in baby Ron escapes me, but the poster was adamant that it was possible. :D



Jessica
22.07.2005 в 19:19

Tango
I miss always agreeing with you.

LOL!! Me too. (Oops, here I go agreeing again). I miss your humour, too.



I miss Cressid and her deep theories...

Yep. And the sex/drugs/videotape (come to think of it, that story had all three). I still have it actually, though not all the chapters unfortunately. Parts of it are damn good. I still remember Cressid complaining that our outfit desсriрtions were not hip enough!



I remember how obscenely difficult it was to schedule all our chats without forcing anyone to be online at crazy hours.

On the other hand, it was probably the first and only time I ever voluntarily got out of bed at 6 am on a Saturday! And it was worth it, too. :D



I have also read that Ron is the reincarnation of Dumbledore -- quite a live Dumbledore could reincarnate himself in baby Ron escapes me, but the poster was adamant that it was possible.

Why Ron? Why not, say, Dobby? He has the better name for it. :laugh:
23.07.2005 в 21:52

I have most of the story saved too -- I do think we were onto something with it. It was becoming an original work rather than an uber.



Why Ron? Googling "Ron is Dumbledore" gave me this link: http://www.sugarquill.net/forum/lof...php/t4330.html. Personally I don't buy it, but it's one of the more entertaining theories I've seen. :D



So... what other HP stuff can we talk about? Tell me why you don't like Sirius. :) I think his story is one of the most tragic in the series. He couldn't really control the sequence of events that led to his incarceration, but I think ultimately it was the flaws in his personality that led to his death. As a Marauder, he appeared to have it all -- young, attractive, quite the daredevil -- but Azkaban stole all that from him. It was his desperation that caused him to just go too far in book 5. I don't think he should have gone to the Ministry, but I would have liked to have seen anyone try and stop him. I think what really affected him was how useless he felt in book 5; when he could clearly have been out contributing to the Order, he was forced to be shut up in Grimmauld Place. I can buy that he lost it a little bit in book 5, and I think it's a really sad set of circumstances that led up to that.



Jessica
24.07.2005 в 07:35

Tango
Tell me why you don't like Sirius.

It's not that I actively dislike him. I just don't "like" him, if that makes any sense. I don't feel any emotional connection to him, for whatever reason. I agree about the flaws in his personality, and the rest of what you say, but somehow I just couldn't connect with him at all.



As for other wild HP theories -- my husband thinks that Snape might be Dumbledore's son. :D Personally I don't buy it (and didn't we see Snape's parents at some point in book 5? It was unpleasant, from what I remember), but the theory has a kind of perverse attraction. I guess he kind of thought of Snape as a son, anyway...



Tango
24.07.2005 в 13:52

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Yeah, and that's why he trusted him so blindly - and even let other trust him out of that reason only! - I'm more and more inclined to believe it, especially in the light of what R. said about Dumbledore recenttly: "big man - big mistakes" + about Snape: "he was loved by someone, and that makes him even more culpable (in some ways)". Shucks, I really don't want to believe either in that stupid Headmaster or in that mean Snape... (((
24.07.2005 в 14:23

Tango
Yeah, that's it exactly -- it he _was_ D's son, then yes, I can imagine that Dumbledore could be mistaken about him, and then ... I just don't want to believe it, for the same reasons that you say: stupid Dumbledore, mean Snape. As a friend of mine said about this -- she doesn't know if Snape is meant to be evil, but she would like the story better if he was good. Simply because it works better that way (she's not a Snape fan, she's a fan of children's literature).



On the other hand, would Dumbledore really risk so many lives simply on the grounds that he had a good feeling about his son? (If so, it makes everything D's fault, and I really would hate that!)



Also, what about the obvious problems: ie, Snape clearly thinks he is a half-blood, and his father was a muggle... Hm.



What are the comments from? Was it an interview?
24.07.2005 в 14:32

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tangofiction Yes, there was a huge interview here:



"Also, what about the obvious problems: ie, Snape clearly thinks he is a half-blood, and his father was a muggle... Hm."

- That's why I'm now rather for your "he kind of thought of Snape as a son, anyway..." - It would indeed look way too much like a soap opera otherwise)))



And yes, it would make the whole seting beautifully tragic ect., but it would completely undermine Dumbledore and Snape characters at the same time. Rrr, now I think that instead of writing "I trust Snape" we should've put "I trust Rowling" on our avatars...))))

Well, she did this nice little twist with Fleur in the end, I mean... smth like that for Sevvie, or is it too much to ask for? :shuffle:
24.07.2005 в 17:12

Tango
Dolly

Was there a link for the interview? Because if so, I didn't get it -- it's just blank... :-/



Rrr, now I think that instead of writing "I trust Snape" we should've put "I trust Rowling" on our avatars...))))

YES! Precisely. I think it comes down not so much to what kind of character Snape is (because obviously there is no way to tell from the text, deliberately so) but whether Rowling herself would want to undermine these characters in such a fashion. And while I appreciate that she has the right to do it, I'd really rather not see it done.



It would indeed look way too much like a soap opera otherwise)))

I think it still does. Also, if he thought of him as a son it wouldn't have blinded him _that_ much, surely -- not enough to trust him on something so big without major proof. No, I'm still leaning towards my original interpretation -- that there was something rock-solid involved, and that in Dumbledore's eyes the actions taken by Snape to get this object made it obvious that his remorse was genuine.



My sister leans towards the "Snape was in love with Lily" theory. I'm not sure on that one -- again, I don't think it would make Dumbledore trust Snape so completely, because words are insufficient; whether or not Snape had feelings for Lily is beside the point.



She also said that she heard a theory that Dumbledore's cries while he drinks the poison ("don't hurt them, do it to me";) were actually related to Snape's memory of having betrayed Lily and James -- that it was something to do with occlumency... Again, I'm not sure. I think JKR was just echoing the famous "do it to Julia" in "1984", turning it on its head. But who knows.



Tango
24.07.2005 в 17:40

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Oh darn, I forgot, sorry, sorry, brainless me))))))

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/e...interview1.html

- there are 3 parts, all worth perusing.



"whether or not Snape had feelings for Lily is beside the point"

- I agree.



Right, those delirious utterances still bother me, and I wonder whether one should try to decipher them as a particular clue, - but I like your asociation with 1984 - yes!))
24.07.2005 в 19:59

Tango
Thanks so much for the link! The discussion about Harry/Hermione shippers being "delusional" had me shaking my head -- it sounds so much like the Xena/Gab vs Xena/Ares mudslinging. Even the language is the same. "Delusional", "militant", etc. Yuck. And I must say it was hysterical about her going in the chatroom and being treated with contempt as a newbie -- but also rather sad. At least that never happened in the Xenaverse (newbies = fresh meat, adored by all). :D



So, let's see... Relevant stuff:



1. Snape is not a vampire. :D Just had to throw that one in.



2. "ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die?

JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big theory?

MA & ES: Yes. It’ll be a big theory.

JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A little laughter.] I have to give people hope."




From her saying later that she only shoots down the implausible theories, I guess this puts "Dumbledore planned it" into the realm of plausible-but-unlikely. I don't think he planned it, per se, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was a result of fatalism -- a part of his risk-taking.



3. Snape is not the next Dark Lord. :D From the context, it sounds like she means that he could be "bad" but not "evil".



4. The conflict between Harry and Snape has become more personal and important. This may be like what I said before about the dramatic purpose of Snape's "bad turn" being to create that conflict with Harry -- but it could also be its consequence rather than its cause.



5. Not exactly relevant, but I loved this: "I think the first book contains more gruesome imagery than the second, despite the giant snake, because the cloaked figure drinking the unicorn blood is pretty damn creepy." -- I agree. I remember being creeped out by that.



6. Snape was loved by someone -- I agree with you, it's a giveaway that he has done something B-A-D. Question it, what was it? Betraying James/Lily, or killing Dumbledore? No way to know.



And yet another irrelevancy: I love that she mentioned Miranda Richardson's upcoming turn as Rita Skeeter, because I also adore her. She played Mme Giry in "Phantom", btw, so my portrayal of Mme Giry in "Solo" is based on her.



Tango
24.07.2005 в 20:09

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"Snape is not the next Dark Lord. From the context, it sounds like she means that he could be "bad" but not "evil"."



- Didn't she actually mean a Vampire (Lord of Darkness etc.) in that context? I.e. not as Voldemort's heir))), but in lines of vampire-theory?

Well, B-A-D anyway..((((

:gigi:
25.07.2005 в 03:55

Tango
Hm, I'm not sure about the vampire thing, but maybe... I didn't get that impression.



Actually I had a brainwave about the "culpable" comment. I think she meant that Snape was more culpable for the _murder of Harry's parents_ than Voldemort was, even though it was Voldemort who did it, because V. had never had anyone to love him, yada yada. Otherwise it's too silly -- of course he's culpable for the murder of Dumbledore, he's the one who killed him.



I guess that's why it's important that Harry grew up without love and yet turned out okay... Dumbledore says something like that in this book. So yeah, I think she was talking about why Snape's betrayal of Lily and James was such a horror in Harry's eyes.



Tango
25.07.2005 в 13:37

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Ok, let's stick to his past sins, that makes me feel better somehow.)))
25.07.2005 в 17:18

Tango
Ok, let's stick to his past sins, that makes me feel better somehow.)))

Me too. :laugh:
26.07.2005 в 01:16

Tanya -- r.e. no emotional investment in Sirius... that's interesting. :) Personally I feel the same way about Dumbledore. I think it's because we see Dumbledore through Harry's eyes and we're supposed to look up to him because he a) is in charge and b) appears to know everything. :) I'm not saying I wasn't sad when he died, but my reaction was more shock ("WTF just happened?" :D). I was expecting him to die, but I was not expecting Snape to kill him, and I was more interested in the reasons behind Snape's actions. (This harkens back to the threads about being Xena-centric or Ares-centric. :D)



That was a great interview -- it's also posted on www.mugglenet.com. I like the idea of having fans interview JKR; they ask much more intelligent questions than most reporters. :)



Jessica
26.07.2005 в 01:33

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"WTF just happened?" :-D



I must admit, I envy you so much. I could've had the very same reaction, if not these bloody spoilers)). And I love that "being hit by the book" state so much..)))
26.07.2005 в 01:56

I must admit, I envy you so much. I could've had the very same reaction, if not these bloody spoilers)). And I love that "being hit by the book" state so much..)))



I was very determined not to look at spoilers. Fortunately, my internet access was limited before the book came out, as we were away from home, but even when I had the book in my hot little hands I forced myself not even to read the inside jacket. :D



It's wonderful when you read a great book, isn't it? The kind that makes you want to start reading it again immediately. :)



Jessica