Just wanted to write this down while I remember it, so that I can come back in 2 years' time and laugh at my own ridiculous ideas.
Warning:
spoilers!
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Why I think Snape may have been the one who stole the real Horcrux from the cave:
-- the main safeguard on the locket is a potion - a potion someone had to brew and put in place. One person could not have gotten the Horcrux (according to Dumbledore) if that person had to drink the potion -- but what about taking it out before the potion went in?
-- the note suggests that the person who took the Horcrux wants to make a point of betraying Voldemort. The whole purpose of the note is to say, basically, "I am NOT on your side, and here is proof!"
-- it is possible (though unlikely, I admit) that a horcrux was the 'ironclad proof' Snape furnished for Dumbledore. It would be neat if a Horcrux was also the ironclad proof (of treachery) to Voldemort. I admit this is a stretch, but...
-- I don't think RAB are initials of any wizard or witch, or Hermione would have identified them. It is also unlikely to be two people working in tandem because, again, the note suggests that the removal of the horcrux is a very personal action against Voldemort by one person ("It was I", not "we"
.
-- it would just be elegant.
Not only for narrative reasons, but it also brings things back to Book 1 and the safeguards on the Philosopher's Stone (the potions).
Tango
Besides, it's very strange that Snape could know about smth that confidential that nobody knew about, and even D. had to spend many years to figure out. Some Regulus wouldn't know either, I admit.
In my opinion: Темна вода в облацех...
EDITED to say that no, I won't make a new post, because I realised that there's a problem with my idea. I thought that if "RAB" really are initials, then it could be Amelia Bones (a lot of people do use their middle name instead of their first name) but ... WikiPedia informs me that her middle name is Susan. (I don't have book 5 handy to check, but I suspect that they are right). So - probably not her, but it's a pity; if Voldemort went to the trouble of killing her personally, it would fit.
Ah well.
Tango
What about Regulus Black? (Sirius's younger brother -- in book 5 when Harry found the family tapestry, Sirius said he'd been a Death Eater but had gotten cold feet and he was killed, but he probably wasn't in deep enough to merit a personal execution from Voldemort.) He doesn't have a middle name as far as we know, but he and Snape would probably have been close enough in age at Hogwarts to have know each other... maybe they both got cold feet at once. Who knows? I don't think Hermione knew about him, which would explain his name not occuring to her.
Maybe Snape gave Regulus the impression that he too wanted to defect, so they set about finding the Horcrux. When they got there, Snape was forced to kill Regulus because Regulus wanted to defect and Snape had to keep his cover as a DE, and then Snape took the Horcrux to Dumbledore in Regulus's name.
I liked your review of HBP too -- great comments! I LOVED the book. (But Sirius is one of my favourite characters... I miss him. I have a really half-baked idea that in the final confrontation Harry and Voldemort will progress 'beyond the veil' and Sirius will have to guide Harry in how to defeat Voldemort, so Sirius can at least sort-of return.)
Jessica
"Maybe Snape gave Regulus the impression that he too wanted to defect, so they set about finding the Horcrux. When they got there, Snape was forced to kill Regulus because Regulus wanted to defect and Snape had to keep his cover as a DE, and then Snape took the Horcrux to Dumbledore in Regulus's name."
- Or they went together just like Harry and Dumbledore, and one of them had to drink, and that guy was Regulus, and then he died of it, and everybody thought, aha, DE killed him. And Snape went to D. ... and what? He couldn't have bought him this Horcrux, because then why on Earth should D. return there to look for it again?!
"I have a really half-baked idea that in the final confrontation Harry and Voldemort will progress 'beyond the veil' and Sirius will have to guide Harry in how to defeat Voldemort, so Sirius can at least sort-of return.)"
- Oh yes, I love this idea! I'll stick to it, it's so promising..
Yay, you're back! I love your theories -- though I do think that the major argument against it being an actual name is that Hermione was looking up people in various papers and records in the library: she turned up two promising names but couldn't find any connection with the Dark Arts, so I think she would have turned up Regulus' name too, if it was plausible that it's him. (Also an argument against Amelia Bones, admittedly.) But we'll have to wait and see, I guess.
It occurred to me that it could be Snape + someone else too, and like you, I also thought that IF Snape had given Dumbledore a Horcrux, that would be the ultimate "ironclad proof" of his loyalties (I'm convinced he had to have given D. something tangible, not just words or a vow). So in fact, it's plausible that the note was to put Voldemort off the real track and as you said, Snape wrote it after Regulus was killed or drank the poison. (Actually I'm inclined to go with the latter of those two options, if that's the case -- I doubt Snape would have killed him).
Dolly
Or they went together just like Harry and Dumbledore, and one of them had to drink, and that guy was Regulus, and then he died of it, and everybody thought, aha, DE killed him.
That's actually a rather brilliant idea for getting rid of Regulus, if Jessica is right and it was him and Snape working together. The picture is starting to look quite plausible, even.
And Snape went to D. ... and what? He couldn't have bought him this Horcrux, because then why on Earth should D. return there to look for it again?!
Snape may not have told Dumbledore where the Horcrux came from. If nothing else, it would have been dangerous to do because the fewer people know that he was in the cave with Regulus (or whoever), the better his cover with Voldemort. Why compromise it for the sake of a travelogue, anyway? Now that the Horcrux is gone, there is no need for Dumbledore to know where it came from. So Dumbledore could have been working on outdated information when he went to chase the Horcrux (he did not know which one it was, did he?), and it seems that he told nobody but Harry where he was going that night -- not even Snape. If he had, perhaps Snape would have stopped him.
Tango
Nice theories -- they flesh out my hastily-written post a lot. :-)
And Snape went to D. ... and what? He couldn't have bought him this Horcrux, because then why on Earth should D. return there to look for it again?!
One interesting little titbit I found on a HP forum I occasionally visit is that while they're cleaning out 12 Grimmauld Place in book 5, there is mention of a big, heavy gold locket they nobody could open. I don't remember what they decided to do with it... but it's entirely possible that that's the Horcrux. And since Harry now owns it, according to Sirius's will... all he has to do is a) figure this out, and b) destroy it. Then do the same thing for three more. Then kill Voldemort.
Tanya
I never go away. I am just an erratic commenter.
Btw, this is completely off-topic, but if you would like to read a work of absolute genius, I suggest you check out http://www.livejournal.com/community/shoebox_project/ -- the Shoebox Project. It's the zaniest imagining of the Marauders I have ever had the pleasure to read.
That way, he could take the Horcrux to Dumbledore as his ironclad proof of defection, but he could also either forge the note, or have actually let Regulus write it in advance (I mean, if you were on a little island with an army of dead bodies floating around, you wouldn't be feeling particularly eloquent!
Jessica
Infact there is already a nicely put theory somewhere in LJ which reminds us of Mundungus' brief appearance with stolen stuff. It can be that it's a link between that locket in the 5th book and Horcruxes. Maybe Mund. even stole it)))).
Tango, Jessica:
Still, I don't like the whole issue of Dumbledore going to look for smth already cleaned up by his best spy. Such lack of communication through all these years? I mean Snape could've easily put aside a memory or two for Dumbledore to read. Ok, Snape is vvvery reserved etc., but not so with Dumbledore? (I persume). And Dumbledore would have just loved to pensieve trough a travelogue like this in his spare-time, wouldn't he?
I don't think you can edit a post unless you've logged in -- and no worries, post as many times as you like.
Actually I think everything is going to be suspected of being a Horcrux now! I heard an idea from someone that Dumbledore was a Horcrux (or at least his hand, because V's soul went from the ring into it) and that's why Snape had to kill him. Personally, I have my doubts -- but you never know.
I mean, if you were on a little island with an army of dead bodies floating around, you wouldn't be feeling particularly eloquent!
LOL!!! True.
I could see a younger Snape leading Regulus on that they were both going to Dumbledore with the Horcrux, most probably knowing full well that only he himself would make it
Really? That would make him quite a bastard, though. It's one thing to be responsible for someone's death through passing information; it's quite another to physically lead someone to their death, force-feed them poison, and then blame the whole thing on them.
it's still there, it's safe. Regulus wanted me to drink the potion, we had a fight, he fell into the creepy dead water. So I hopped right back on the boat.
*snorts with barely-suppressed laughter* I can just see this. Someone should write a comedy fic like that. (Dark comedy, admittedly...
I'll check out the fic you recommend, but probably not for a while -- I'm up to my ears in work, writing, etc at the moment!
Dolly
I don't like the whole issue of Dumbledore going to look for smth already cleaned up by his best spy
Neither did Dumbledore, I'm sure...
Tango
Infact there is already a nicely put theory somewhere in LJ which reminds us of Mundungus' brief appearance with stolen stuff. It can be that it's a link between that locket in the 5th book and Horcruxes. Maybe Mund. even stole it)))).
Interesting... I have yet to see the point of Mundungus's character; maybe there is a reason for him being there. :-)
Jessica
Really? That would make him quite a bastard, though. It's one thing to be responsible for someone's death through passing information; it's quite another to physically lead someone to their death, force-feed them poison, and then blame the whole thing on them. Dunno, I'm more inclined to think that if it happened this way, Regulus was acting of his own free will.
Whatever side he's on, I still think Snape is a vindictive jerk. We've seen how much he dislikes Harry, who hasn't really done anything to deserve this hatred (at least he hadn't at the beginning -- but once you know someone isn't going to like you no matter how nice to them you are, there's really no point wasting your time). Regulus was Sirius's younger brother; I can see Snape going through a similar thought process that he could get some revenge on Sirius for the latter having been so cruel to him. (Although I think the truth of this is debatable -- in the Pensieve in book 5, it certainly looked like Snape was being unfairly victimised, but he did invent the Levicorpus spell that James used on him -- and I think he fights back with what could have been the Sectumsempra one. I think there was more fight in him than we saw in that scene.) I also think that there is no one more important to Snape than Snape, and he would much rather Regulus drank an unknown potion than himself.
I do think Regulus was acting of his own free will -- I just think Snape had his own agenda that determined the information Regulus had.
(it keeps telling me I'm over the allowable post limit -- more in the following)
Speaking of weird theories, the best one I've seen so far is that Dumbledore and Snape were actually masquerading as each other, so Dumbledore was at Spinner's End and so Snape was not tied by the Unbreakable Vow. All I can say is that that would take VATS of Polyjuice Potion.
Jessica
BTW, somewhat off-topic, I've really missed these character discussions with you! Now all we need is Cressid to assure us that everyone is more messed-up than we could possibly guess, and the unholy trinity will be complete.
I didn't really understand how the HBP was actually relevant to the Horcrux storyline. It seemed like something totally separate.
I had the same issue. I suppose it will be explained in the next book. This one really does leave an awful lot of loose ends.
All I can say is that that would take VATS of Polyjuice Potion
Bwahaha!! I think this one is up there with the "evil Dumbledore" theory.
Tango
I miss talking to you as well! I miss always agreeing with you.
I'm sure the Horcrux/HBP thing will be explained -- if it's important enough to be the title of the book, it will come back. I think this book is almost the prologue to the finale, because they'll be more closely related than the others have been. We pretty much know what Harry's intentions are for the next book, which we haven't before. We knew he'd go back to Hogwarts, sure, but that doesn't count.
I have also read that Ron is the reincarnation of Dumbledore -- quite a live Dumbledore could reincarnate himself in baby Ron escapes me, but the poster was adamant that it was possible.
Jessica
LOL!! Me too. (Oops, here I go agreeing again). I miss your humour, too.
I miss Cressid and her deep theories...
Yep. And the sex/drugs/videotape (come to think of it, that story had all three). I still have it actually, though not all the chapters unfortunately. Parts of it are damn good. I still remember Cressid complaining that our outfit desсriрtions were not hip enough!
I remember how obscenely difficult it was to schedule all our chats without forcing anyone to be online at crazy hours.
On the other hand, it was probably the first and only time I ever voluntarily got out of bed at 6 am on a Saturday! And it was worth it, too.
I have also read that Ron is the reincarnation of Dumbledore -- quite a live Dumbledore could reincarnate himself in baby Ron escapes me, but the poster was adamant that it was possible.
Why Ron? Why not, say, Dobby? He has the better name for it.
Why Ron? Googling "Ron is Dumbledore" gave me this link: http://www.sugarquill.net/forum/lof...php/t4330.html. Personally I don't buy it, but it's one of the more entertaining theories I've seen.
So... what other HP stuff can we talk about? Tell me why you don't like Sirius.
Jessica
It's not that I actively dislike him. I just don't "like" him, if that makes any sense. I don't feel any emotional connection to him, for whatever reason. I agree about the flaws in his personality, and the rest of what you say, but somehow I just couldn't connect with him at all.
As for other wild HP theories -- my husband thinks that Snape might be Dumbledore's son.
Tango
On the other hand, would Dumbledore really risk so many lives simply on the grounds that he had a good feeling about his son? (If so, it makes everything D's fault, and I really would hate that!)
Also, what about the obvious problems: ie, Snape clearly thinks he is a half-blood, and his father was a muggle... Hm.
What are the comments from? Was it an interview?
"Also, what about the obvious problems: ie, Snape clearly thinks he is a half-blood, and his father was a muggle... Hm."
- That's why I'm now rather for your "he kind of thought of Snape as a son, anyway..." - It would indeed look way too much like a soap opera otherwise)))
And yes, it would make the whole seting beautifully tragic ect., but it would completely undermine Dumbledore and Snape characters at the same time. Rrr, now I think that instead of writing "I trust Snape" we should've put "I trust Rowling" on our avatars...))))
Well, she did this nice little twist with Fleur in the end, I mean... smth like that for Sevvie, or is it too much to ask for?
Was there a link for the interview? Because if so, I didn't get it -- it's just blank...
Rrr, now I think that instead of writing "I trust Snape" we should've put "I trust Rowling" on our avatars...))))
YES! Precisely. I think it comes down not so much to what kind of character Snape is (because obviously there is no way to tell from the text, deliberately so) but whether Rowling herself would want to undermine these characters in such a fashion. And while I appreciate that she has the right to do it, I'd really rather not see it done.
It would indeed look way too much like a soap opera otherwise)))
I think it still does. Also, if he thought of him as a son it wouldn't have blinded him _that_ much, surely -- not enough to trust him on something so big without major proof. No, I'm still leaning towards my original interpretation -- that there was something rock-solid involved, and that in Dumbledore's eyes the actions taken by Snape to get this object made it obvious that his remorse was genuine.
My sister leans towards the "Snape was in love with Lily" theory. I'm not sure on that one -- again, I don't think it would make Dumbledore trust Snape so completely, because words are insufficient; whether or not Snape had feelings for Lily is beside the point.
She also said that she heard a theory that Dumbledore's cries while he drinks the poison ("don't hurt them, do it to me"
Tango
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/e...interview1.html
- there are 3 parts, all worth perusing.
"whether or not Snape had feelings for Lily is beside the point"
- I agree.
Right, those delirious utterances still bother me, and I wonder whether one should try to decipher them as a particular clue, - but I like your asociation with 1984 - yes!))
So, let's see... Relevant stuff:
1. Snape is not a vampire.
2. "ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die?
JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big theory?
MA & ES: Yes. It’ll be a big theory.
JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A little laughter.] I have to give people hope."
From her saying later that she only shoots down the implausible theories, I guess this puts "Dumbledore planned it" into the realm of plausible-but-unlikely. I don't think he planned it, per se, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was a result of fatalism -- a part of his risk-taking.
3. Snape is not the next Dark Lord.
4. The conflict between Harry and Snape has become more personal and important. This may be like what I said before about the dramatic purpose of Snape's "bad turn" being to create that conflict with Harry -- but it could also be its consequence rather than its cause.
5. Not exactly relevant, but I loved this: "I think the first book contains more gruesome imagery than the second, despite the giant snake, because the cloaked figure drinking the unicorn blood is pretty damn creepy." -- I agree. I remember being creeped out by that.
6. Snape was loved by someone -- I agree with you, it's a giveaway that he has done something B-A-D. Question it, what was it? Betraying James/Lily, or killing Dumbledore? No way to know.
And yet another irrelevancy: I love that she mentioned Miranda Richardson's upcoming turn as Rita Skeeter, because I also adore her. She played Mme Giry in "Phantom", btw, so my portrayal of Mme Giry in "Solo" is based on her.
Tango
- Didn't she actually mean a Vampire (Lord of Darkness etc.) in that context? I.e. not as Voldemort's heir))), but in lines of vampire-theory?
Well, B-A-D anyway..((((
Actually I had a brainwave about the "culpable" comment. I think she meant that Snape was more culpable for the _murder of Harry's parents_ than Voldemort was, even though it was Voldemort who did it, because V. had never had anyone to love him, yada yada. Otherwise it's too silly -- of course he's culpable for the murder of Dumbledore, he's the one who killed him.
I guess that's why it's important that Harry grew up without love and yet turned out okay... Dumbledore says something like that in this book. So yeah, I think she was talking about why Snape's betrayal of Lily and James was such a horror in Harry's eyes.
Tango
Me too.
That was a great interview -- it's also posted on www.mugglenet.com. I like the idea of having fans interview JKR; they ask much more intelligent questions than most reporters.
Jessica
I must admit, I envy you so much. I could've had the very same reaction, if not these bloody spoilers)). And I love that "being hit by the book" state so much..)))
I was very determined not to look at spoilers. Fortunately, my internet access was limited before the book came out, as we were away from home, but even when I had the book in my hot little hands I forced myself not even to read the inside jacket.
It's wonderful when you read a great book, isn't it? The kind that makes you want to start reading it again immediately.
Jessica